──Please tell us about the "Bergmál" mask that Björk wore during the first week of Coachella.

James　Yes, the inspiration for this particular mask was to make something that would radiate outwards from the head, like a soundwave frozen in air. I spend a lot of time sculpting these pieces in 3D software - playing with particular forms and shapes until they produce something I find interesting. So it is often a mixture of accident and intention.

For the Bergmál headpiece I was exploring spirals and trying to produce a shape with one continuous edge that would rotate around its own axis, folding back in on itself many times. Once I had created that form I realised that it looked like a soundwave, so I pushed it further in that direction knowing that it could fit well into Björk´s sonic world.

────I feel that the word "Bergmál", which is also the title of this mask, reflects some kind of unique Icelandic values. What do you think about the word "Bergmal" and its values? Do you ever experience those values while living in Reykjavik?

James　Bergmál has always been one of my favourite words in Icelandic. It literally translates to “mountain language” - because of the way an echo bounces down a valley, as if the mountains are speaking to each other. I love that image evoked by the word. I have lived in Iceland for almost 10 years now, but the culture still reveals itself to me bit by bit - through the language as I learn it, the books I read and the music I listen to.

──Next, I would like to ask about the "Ossein" mask that Björk wore during the second week of Coachella.

James　The form of the Ossein mask was a product of many experiments in the 3D sculpting phase, and turned out to be one of the most complex things I have sculpted. I was amazed that it was even printable. My intention with the references and inspirations was more concerning the texture - I really wanted it to look like cartilage or fishbones, something with a very organic translucency to it.

──I see, so the distinction wasn’t made intentionally. The characteristics of this mask are clearly evident from the source of its inspiration, but I think one of its characteristics is that it turns blue when exposed to a certain type of ultraviolet light, in order to reproduce the glow of living organisms underwater.

James　I had originally planned for these masks to include some LED lights, moving around and flashing inside them like an underwater sea creature. However, early on in the sculpt I realised that this was going to be difficult to achieve without sacrificing a lot of the design elements, so I decided to use UV light instead. I had used UV threads a lot in some of my first early embroidered pieces, which glowed under certain stage lights - so it was an aspect I was keen to revisit in the 3D printed iterations. I´m very happy we ended up going in this direction, as this gave the mask a more organic and bioluminescent feeling (wheres LED might have become too “disco”!)

──These two masks were created with the secca team. How did you feel when you actually held the mask that they had created?

James　I was totally overwhelmed! Their meticulous craftsmanship and alchemical ability to make some beautiful textures really brought the pieces to life in a way I could never have expected. I travelled to Kanazawa to visit them and it was such a great experience - getting to know them personally and professionally was a lot of fun, and I am so proud of what we made together.

──This time, you used 3D printing to carve these two masks. What is your thought behind incorporating these new technologies into your design project with Björk?

James　Since I started making masks, I have always moved between different mediums almost unintentionally just as a result of wanting to evolve my designs. At first they were all embroidered, then I started to use wire and beadwork, then silicone sculpting, and then into metalwork and silversmithing. 3D printing was a very natural extension of that journey, particularly as I had also started to 3D sculpt and programme my masks as AR filters.

I really enjoy switching between the physical and digital worlds when I work now - and I find that the two disciplines can accompany and enhance each other, rather than compete. The last few masks i have made have come out of a back and forth between the two, designing by hand in quite a traditional silversmith practice and then putting that into 3D sculpting software and manipulating it there, and then back again into the physical world. 

──Generative AI is currently gaining popularity around the world, but many people question its existence. As technology develops. What do you think about the future where technology coexists with art?

James I think we have lived with AI for a while now, as an integrated function of all sorts of softwares and technologies that we didn't necessarily call AI until recently. But rather than perceive it as a threat, I take it more like a challenge - if your concepts or aesthetics can be so easily replicated by an algorithm, then I would rather use that as an impetus to keep evolving and think of something new that the machine can't do.

99.99% of the AI art that I have seen is quite homogenised, unless someone is doing something clever with it or incorporating it their existing practice rather than just relying on it entirely. As with any other tool or technology I am most interested when an artist finds their own idiosyncratic way to use it and lean into the glitches, making the nature of the medium part of the artwork but bending it towards their own world.

──When you started the production of the masks did you start with the design presented by James?

Sugano　James is responsible for the overall art direction of the project and the design of the masks. James presented us with a concrete design that was digitally sculpted using 3D data, and we were responsible for how to make it a physical 3D print with the quality that Björk and James wanted. I was involved as a technical director, and the secca team was in charge of production, and they demonstrated their craftsmanship to the fullest. We follow a process where we make adjustments to areas that need to be carefully adjusted during implementation, such as the strength of the live performance, without damaging the original design, then print them out and refine them.

──Did you have a concept for each mask already decided when you received the 3D data from James?

Sugano　If anything, we had a specific design image from the beginning, and we started by figuring out how to make it a reality. James was the one who directly discussed the concept with Björk, but I was able to fully understand the important parts of the concept from James' design. It doesn't look like a digital design at all, it feels very organic. The design is inspired by things that are close to living things, or rather things that are natural. Based on my experience with previous projects with Björk, I knew from the beginning that even though this design was implemented using the latest technology, I had to make it look extremely organic and not give the impression that it was implemented using the latest technology. I think we started off by properly aligning our understanding with the secca team.

Uemachi　What really deepened our understanding was when James came all the way to Kanazawa, where we are based. By talking to him in person, face-to face, we felt like we were able to figure out what quality we should improve on and what we should propose. Just like his attitude toward this project, he was very polite and careful about how he treated us. During our exchanges, I learned that the beauty of Iceland's natural beauty that he sensitively observes on a daily basis is a source of inspiration for him, and that the beauty in nature is an expression of himself. I could feel that he was trying to embody that through his costume. It feels like part of your skin rather than something you wear. That's the kind of costume James and Björk were looking for.

──Were you able to print the prototype with a 3D printer when James came to Kanazawa?

Uemachi　Yes we were. By the time James came to Kanazawa, the secca team had had detailed discussions, adjusted the data, and printed out samples. While analyzing the rough data we received in advance, we realized that there were many parts that were physically difficult to reproduce. It was only 0.3mm thick, and there were parts where I thought it would break if I moved it around during a live performance. We also create works using 3D modeling on a daily basis, but when we look at the parts that we thought were beautiful on screen, when we hold them in the actual space, we find that they are far from what we imagined, and there is a gap between them. It is a series of tasks such as filling in the information, printing it out, and checking it again. When James came to Kanazawa, he was able to see the test printed samples and was able to give his opinions directly. We were able to share a concrete image of how we wanted the product to look and fine-tune it, allowing us to make solid adjustments. For example, we said things like, “If we want to make it look that way, let's keep it thick here and make it thicker in other areas”, and we worked out what areas we couldn't compromise on and where we could compromise.

────Sugano-san wrote on Instagram, “the 3D data sent by James was beautiful in every way, and secca was just amazing!’.

Sugano　As Uemachi-san mentioned, when we looked at the data, we felt that it would be difficult to achieve the strength of the masks due to the relationship with the material and shape. There were some parts that needed some work to make sure they would be fixed. This is because both masks were designed by calculating backwards from an ideal picture surface, so it was assumed that if things remained as they were, it would be physically difficult to put the masks on the face in the first place. Despite this, the secca team has taken the initial inspiration and implemented it in a way that enhances it without compromising its design at all. I felt that secca's ingenuity was wonderful in that respect.

In addition, this mask cannot be completed simply by printing it out with a 3D printer; it requires a considerable amount of manual labor by craftsmen in order to achieve the ideal appearance, including texture and transparency. It is not something that can be learned in a few days. It is difficult, even for experienced engineers, to realize the designs and concepts conceived by world-class creatives such as Björk and James without sacrificing any of them. In other words, both digital engineering skills and artisanal manual skills are required. In addition to having experience and an understanding of the work, you also need the ability to not give up to the limit, which is a psychological thing. The secca team was perfect in all aspects, so we owe Uemachi-san and his team a huge thank you that we were able to make it happen this time.

────Uemachi-san previously said that when secca produces crafts, it strives to achieve an expression of art and functionality as a product used in everyday life. I thought this story might have some similarities to that.

Uemachi　That may be the ultimate thing. For example, when it comes to tableware for everyday use that is mass-produced, the people who use it and the situations in which it is used are diverse, so in order to satisfy each person who picks it up, it may be necessary to reduce it to an average design to meet the diverse needs of each person who uses it. This time, I made it just for Björk, so I focused on how she could concentrate on her performance at her best, and I was most conscious of making sure the mask didn't create noise. If the mask itself were to break, or come off during the performance, something would be ruined, including the time and value of the experience for those attending the concert. That's what I was most afraid of, because it will effect matters even after the show.

──So, Sugano-san, when you first became involved with Björk in the music video for "Mouth Mantora" in 2015, is there anything that stands out to you through that experience?

Sugano　First of all, the most important thing is being very careful and taking the time and effort to make creative decisions. The music video for "Mouth Mantra", which I helped out with, was a very difficult idea to visualize the inside of the mouth. The live video for "Quicksand" that I also helped out at exhibition which was held in Tokyo was streamed in real time using a live camera, but after that, we had to carefully consider and have a lot of creative interactions before releasing the archived work. I remember there were lots of creatives discussions about it.

Another thing that struck me was when I asked Björk about the relationship between art and technology during our conversation was that, she told me that she really likes incorporating new technology, and she gave examples of traditional instruments that have become commonplace in modern times, such as the piano and violin. She says, “when the piano and violin were created, they were the latest technology”. As for the piano, the technology itself was treated as the subject matter of a song. However, in modern times, the use of the piano is rarely the main theme of music. At first, the use of technology may be touted and become a theme, but before you know it, the technology will disappear and only the music and the emotions it brings will remain. She says, “When it comes to expressing emotions, playing the violin in a certain way allows you to express your emotions. Performance methods and expressions have been cultivated over a long period of history. In other words, the violin is like an old computer. What artists have to do is express themselves by using the tools that we take for granted, which are unique to the era in which we live. I think it's an artist's job to put their heart into technology.” Those words really impressed me and stuck with me.

Sugano　Björk's attitude toward technology is the same when it comes to creations that use cutting-edge technologies such as 3D printing, which is the specialty of the secca team. One of the reasons we invited secca to join our team was because, even though they are skilled at creating things using the latest technology, they do not emphasize that as the main aspect for the final product. It is obvious that there is new technology behind the scenes when you understand the process by which the design was created, but the intervention of technology never comes before the design. I thought that this really matched the feeling I had gained through my communication with Björk.

──That sounds like a very important and interesting topic. When we previously interviewed Uemachi-san, you said that using technology is not the purpose for expression, but rather, technology is primarily a tool for realizing expressions.

Uemachi　Yes. We are also conscious of the exact same thing, whether it moves our hearts or not. I think this is the most important point that creates value. Therefore, I view things in this order: experience is necessary to move the mind, and things exist as interfaces for that experience. We learn from what people in the past have done and make use of it, but if we just do the same things as people in the past, we won't create much value. The times are changing, and the sensibilities of the recipients are also changing, so if we pursue new experiences, experiences that fit the present, and experiences that we want to deliver only to that person, we will inevitably find ways that people in the past could not choose. There are often hints. For example, if 3D printing existed in the Edo period, I think it would definitely be used by craftsmen and artists. If there are tools in front of us that people in the past couldn't choose, and if there's a destination beyond that that people in the past couldn't reach, we should actively try them out. We are working with this attitude.

What impressed me when I worked with James this time was that even though we each have different identities and values, we can connect non-verbally through creation. It was difficult for me to communicate verbally because I can’t speak English well, but I think we were really in sync with each other in terms of what we think is beautiful and what moves us. This may have been a big realization that I gained behind the scenes of this activity.

Sugano　I am the creative director of the entire project for over 90% of the work I am involved with, and secca is of course in the same position, and they usually work on their own signed ideas and creations. Secca is by no means a company that only handles technical direction and 3D printing. This time we were not the ones leading the project; Björk is the creative director and James is the artist and designer. What Uemachi's realized is something that was possible because someone else was leading the project rather than himself. The question was - how can we support the creations of a rare artist like Björk and make them realize what they want to do? Although the thinking process is different than usual, we take what Björk and James want to do very seriously, and want to understand their vision, and then help them implement it. It was new and a lot of fun. The vision we all had in common this time was what kind of emotion we wanted to convey to the audience through our creations. The secca team that I know are good at expressing this, and I think they have world-class talent when it comes to achieving this. I wanted many people to know this fact.

It's extremely rare that a project by a world-class artist like this involves a domestic craftsmen like secca who are well versed in traditional Japanese techniques that have been passed down for a long time and are able to handle cutting-edge technology. I hope that by conveying the greatness of secca's participation in a world-class project with a different approach from their usual main work, they will be able to shine a light on it from a different angle than usual. If people understand what kind of valuable work they do, their recognition will expand. I'm sure more and more people will become interested in their products and work, and I sincerely hope for that.

タイで制作されるボーイズラブのドラマ・映画を指す「タイBL」。タイ本国での盛り上がりはもちろん、日本でも2020年頃から大きく注目され、今や日本でファンミーティングが行われ多くのファンが歓喜するなど、近年の代表的なトレンドになっています。

今回はそんなタイBLについて、初心者でも楽しめる魅力から、有識者目線の楽しみ方、さらにはタイのエンタメカルチャーまで、たっぷり語り合います！

お招きしたのは、タイBLにどっぷりハマり、香港やマニラで開催されたファンミーティングやタイ現地にも足を運ぶほか、Qeticでも愛溢れるコラムを執筆している箱戸あんさん。そして、フォロワー2万人越えの、タイ国政府観光庁公式ツイッター“タイBLドラマ専用アカウント”「タイBLに恋したい！」の中の人。「興味はあるけど、何から観たらいいのかわからない……！」タイBL初心者代表として、Qetic編集部員もインタビュアーとして参加しお届けします。

──今日はタイBL超初心者の私や私のようなまだ足を踏み入れたことのない読者へ、タイBLについて一から教えてください！　まずは、お二人がタイBLにハマったきっかけから伺いたいです。

箱戸あん（以下、箱戸）　私は2020年2月にバンコク旅行へ行った際、ターミナル21(ショッピングセンター)で、『ラブ・バイ・チャンス／Love By Chance』のPlanくんの“お誕生日おめでとう広告”を見たんです。かっこいい人だなと思い、SNSで名前を調べて、そこからたくさん視聴して、ハマりました。

──“お誕生日おめでとう広告”というのはどういう広告なんですか？

箱戸　ファンが有志で出資してお誕生日をお祝いする“応援広告”です。K-POP発祥の文化なんですけど、それが結構タイでも主流になっていて。

──そういう広告ってタイではよく見かけるんですか？

「タイBLに恋したい！」の中の人（以下、タイ恋）　そうですね、大型のビジョンに出ていたり、GMMTV（※）さんのビルの表の玄関のところに貼ってあったり、ラッピングされていたりなど、本当にいろんなところで見かけます。あとはトゥクトゥク（タイのタクシー）の後ろに看板のような形で「ハッピーバースデー！」と貼り出されているのもよく見かけます。

※GMMTV（ジーエムエムテレビ）：タイで番組制作・タレントエージェントを行う会社。多くの人気作品を世に送り出しており、“タイドラマブームの火付け役"と言われている。

──箱戸さんはそのようなきっかけから『ラブ・バイ・チャンス／Love By Chance』を観て、さらにどんどんハマるようになったのは、どういう魅力を感じたからなんでしょうか？

箱戸　最初に観た『ラブ・バイ・チャンス／Love By Chance』がツボ過ぎて。日本の作品では最近あまりないストレートな愛情表現というか、「お前は俺を守るんだ」みたいなセリフに「いやー素敵！」みたいな気持ちで観ていました。

あと、最初にキャストのSNSから入って、そこから作品を見てみようみたいな感じだったので、キャスト同士のつながりを辿ったり、このキャストが次はこれにも出るんだ！　と数珠つなぎに次々と作品に出会っていきました。

──タイ恋さんも、タイBL作品はストレートな愛情表現が特徴的という印象ありますか？

タイ恋　ありますね。普段他のドラマを見ていてキュンキュンすることはあんまりないんですけど、タイBL作品を観ているとずっとキュンキュンするようなシーンが多いです。純愛というか、ときめくシーンが多いので、それでハマっていきましたね。

──ラブストーリー全般でそういう愛情表現というか、キュンキュンシーンが多めなのでしょうか？

タイ恋　タイでは日常的に「愛してる」とか、感情をストレートに伝える人が多いかもしれません。そんなストレートな愛情表現がドラマの中にも出てくるので、そこがタイのドラマにおいて特徴的ですし、魅力だなと私は思います。

──素敵ですね。タイ恋さんがタイBLにハマったのは、お仕事がきっかけですか？

タイ恋　タイにはずっと関わっているのですが、最近までタイBLはそこまで興味を持って観ていたわけではなかったんです。それが2020年頃、とあるBL好きな方が「タイのBLドラマいい！」という布教ツイートをポストされたのが広まり、それがある意味日本のタイBLブームのきっかけになったと思うんですけど、そのツイートをたまたま見かけて。その他にもTwitterで色々見ていたらビジュアルが良くて、それで『2gether』に興味が湧いて観てみました。そこから私もどんどんハマっていって……。これだけ日本の方に注目されているのであれば、この「タイBL」を通してタイの魅力を発信できないかなと思いつき、仕事でも扱うようになったんですが、はじめは個人的にハマったのがきっかけです。

──『2gether』では特にどんなところが心に刺さったのでしょうか？

タイ恋　まずはもう……俳優さんのビジュアルがとにかく良いです（笑）、イケメンすぎて。ドラマのクオリティも高いと思います。ストーリー性だったり、タイの文化、風潮を取り入れつつ、ドラマに仕上げているというところは、タイに関わっている人間でも興味深いなと思うところもありますし、ドラマを通してタイってこういう文化があるんだという学びもあって。キュンキュンするのはもちろんなんですけど、それだけじゃないところでも学べる部分が多いですね。

──お二人それぞれ夢中になったポイントがあるんですね。では、ズバリ私のような初心者は、何から観るのがおすすめですか！？　例えばエントリーしやすい作品や、金字塔としてこれはまず観るべき！のような……

タイ恋　金字塔だとやっぱり『SOTUS/ソータス』と『2gether』かな。

箱戸　『2gether』に関しては話数もちょうどいいですし、話の展開も、「次回が楽しみだな！」って思えるような気持ちで観ていました。メインの二人以外にも主人公の友人、相手の友人など登場人物も多く、群像劇としても面白い。

タイ恋　『2gether』はそんなにシリアスな問題もないですし、あまり難しいことを考えずに観れるので、初心者の方にも観やすいと思います。

『SOTUS/ソータス』は大学でのお話なんですけど、タイでは先輩が後輩を教育していくという独特の文化があって、それをもとにしたドラマで、ストーリーの中に「社会で生きていくためにはこういうことが必要なんだよ」というのを先輩が後輩に教えていくという場面が出てきます。あと『SOTUS/ソータス』はタイBLのドラマの中でも、かなりクオリティが高いと思っていて、観た後に「めっちゃよかった」「一番『SOTUS/ソータス』がよかったです」という方も多い。タイのドラマのクオリティの高さを知ってもらうという意味でも、『SOTUS/ソータス』は観ていただきたい作品の一つです。

──そのクオリティの高さなどが人気で続編『SOTUS S THE SERIES』も放送されたんですね。

タイ恋　そうですね。続編は社会人になった後のストーリーで、学生時代の続きから丁寧に描かれていて、ストーリー展開もすごいんです。

──続編って、前作を超えてこなかったりすることも多いですが、それはもうしっかりと期待通りクオリティ高く作られている感じでしたか?

タイ恋　はい、号泣しました（笑）。めちゃめちゃよかったですね。

──今までは“初心者なら”という視点でお話を伺ってきましたが、お二人が作品を観ていくなかで「ここに注目してます」「ここが好きなんです」というようなおすすめポイントはありますか?

箱戸　私は同じキャストやスタッフの作品を掘りますね。「この人がかっこよかったから、次この作品に出るから観よう」「この監督が別作品を監督してるんだ」という感じでどんどん観ていくスタイル。

例えば、Planくんが出ていた『ラブ・バイ・チャンス／Love By Chance』を観て、続編の『ラブ・バイ・チャンス2／A Chance To Love』へ。その後、『ラブ・バイ・チャンス2／A Chance To Love』に出ていた俳優Meenさんが『Ai Long Nhai』の主演だったので観てみて「相変わらずめっちゃかっこいい…！」みたいな感じで続々と数珠つなぎで観れます。

タイ恋　私は、『SOTUS/ソータス』も好きなんですけど、一番好きなのは『TharnType／ターン×タイプ』で。シーズン2まで続いて、日本でもかなり流行ってます。観やすいかと言うと……ちょっと過激なシーンもあるんですけど（笑）。ちょっと大人向けのBLドラマという感じで、刺激もありつつキュンキュンもするっていうので私はかなりハマった作品です。

──タイBLは純愛みたいなイメージがあるので興味深いです。

タイ恋　それまでは『2gether』だったり、純愛の学生モノ『ラブ・バイ・チャンス／Love By Chance』とかもずっと観てきていて、その中で刺激的なものが出てきたのでハマっちゃいましたね。ちょっと大人向けで日本ではなかなか見ない。結構攻めてますね。

箱戸　もう一作品、最近観てお薦めしたいのが、「Between us～縒り合わせる運命～」ですね。こちらもなかなか攻めた描写も多く、1話からドキドキしっぱなしの作品です。刺激的な描写がありながらメインの2人が信頼関係を強くしていく様がきちんと描写されていて、これがどちらも両立するのがタイドラマらしいところでしょうか。UWMAのサブカプの2人がフューチャーされた話ですのでこのドラマだけでももちろん、UWMAも一緒に見ることで2倍楽しめる作品です。

※UWMA：「Until We Meet Again～運命の赤い糸～」

──そういったタイBLの流れというか、このタイBLの勢いというのはどうご覧になっていますか？

タイ恋　元々ずっとあったタイBLがいきなり爆発的に注目されたのは、コロナ禍でエンタメを観る時間が多くなり、注目されるチャンスも増えたというのが一番の要因ではないでしょうか。

観光庁では、本庁バンコクに「タイのBLが今日本で流行ってますよ」と言っても誰も信じてくれなかった（笑）。タイの人たちにとっては、エンタメの一つとして今までずっとあったものなので、「急にそんなはずない」みたいな。いきなりこんなに流行りだすっていうのは誰も予想できなかったですね。

──すごいですね。本庁も予想してなかった（笑）。

タイ恋　なので私がBLのTwitterアカウント開設や、プロジェクトを立ち上げたいと提案した際には「本当に大丈夫なの？」と誰にも信用してもらえなかったんですけど、実際Twitterアカウントのフォロワーが増えていくことで「本当だったんだ」と認めてくれてました（笑）。

──今後注目したいタイ BLのキャスト、監督だけでなくてもスタッフ、ムーブメントなどがあったらお伺いしたいです。

箱戸　監督としてはニュー監督（ニュー・シワット・サワットマニークン／New Siwaj Sawatmaneekul）です。『ラブ・バイ・チャンス／Love By Chance』の監督なんですけど、色んな作品、GMMの作品なども担当されるようになったので、今後が楽しみです。ムーブメント的には、大学生ものは一通りやりきった感があって、最近は『THE TUXEDO』のような社会人モノが増えてきたのが楽しみですね。

タイ恋　個人的にはGMM以外で「Studio Wabi Sabi」をはじめとした他のプロダクションの俳優さんももっと人気が出てほしいなというのがありまして（笑）。なのでGMMのドラマだけではなくて、他の事務所のドラマっていうのをもっと注目していきたいです。

──タイBLではドラマ自体もそうですけど、タイ独自のSNSカルチャーなどドラマ以外のコンテンツも魅力ですよね。個人的には監督さんが頻繁に発信されているのも面白いなと。

箱戸　そうですね、私はマネージャーさんのSNSもフォローしてます（笑）。海外でのファンミーティングの様子など、キャスト本人はバタバタしてあまり発信しなかったりするんですけど、マネージャーさんが現地でご飯を食べているタレントさんの写真をあげてくれるのでよくチェックします（笑）。

──アンテナ張っているところも細かい！　ちなみに初歩的なことなのですが、ファンミーティングって何をするんですか?

箱戸　ファンミーティングは、俳優さんが各地を訪れ、そこへ集まったファンがおしゃべりして、ゲームしてみたいなイベントです。韓国俳優さんが来日した際にも開催されているファンミーティングと似てるんじゃないかな。OSTを俳優さんが歌っているパターンもあるので、生で歌ってくれたりとか。

──なるほど、そういったコミュニケーションの場はタイBLシーンでもあるんですね。タイ恋さんはSNSでタイエンタメの様々な情報を発信されていますが、いかがでしょうか？

タイ恋　ファンミーティングはドラマ以外でも多様に開催されていますね。観光庁のプロモーションでBLの俳優さんにPRで出演いただくこともあり、俳優さんを通してタイの観光地を知ってもらうという発信もしています。

──観光庁の中でBLプロジェクトチームがあるんですか？

タイ恋　それが、チームはなくて、私が言い出しっぺでタイBLをやりたいと言ったので、今は全部一人で動いています。Twitterもそうですけど、企画とかイベントも全部自分で一人でやってるんです。

箱戸　え！？

──お一人で……！？　ということはこんなに豊富な情報に触れられるのはタイ恋さんの功労の賜物ですね！　箱戸さんにとっても、駆け橋としてだいぶ大きな存在ですもんね？

箱戸　いやもう…もう…いつもお世話になってます…！

一同　（笑）

箱戸　先月も今月も今月末もバンコクへ行ったんですけど、本当にお世話になりました。

──どういう情報をチェックしているんですか？

箱戸　やはりロケ地特集はかなり助かりました。『SOTUS/ソータス』に登場する橋は辺鄙なところにあるんですけど、場所を教えてくれるので頑張って行ってみるとか。あとはカルチャー面ですね。現地のご飯も紹介されているので、掲載されているお店はチャレンジしてみようかなって思えたり。

タイ恋　ありがとうございます。

──タイ恋さんはどうやってその情報を収集しているんですか？　例えば聖地・ロケ地はどうやって探し出すんでしょうか。

タイ恋　ロケ地に関しては本当に地道な作業で、自分でドラマを観ながらチラッとロゴが映ったら一回止めて、それを拡大してなんて書いてあるかを調べ、それを検索して突き止めたり。どう調べてもわからないときはタイ人のファンの方に「あのシーンのあれはどこですか？」と聞いたりして。

──ただならぬリサーチと努力が……。

タイ恋　そうですね。なかなかロケ地の詳細って全部表に出してくれなくて。タイに行って聖地巡礼をしたいファンの方はできるだけ多くのスポットを回りたいだろうなと思うので、観光庁としてどれだけ時間がかかってもできるだけ多くの情報をお伝えできるようにしたいんです。

──最後に“タイエンタメカルチャーについて。特にタイ恋さんは観光庁目線で幅広くご存知でしょうし、箱戸さんは何度も現地に足を運ばれているので、それぞれの視点で現在のシーンをどうみられているのか伺いたいです。

タイ恋　そうですね、BLで言うとステイホームの時にYouTubeで気軽に観れたというのがやっぱり一番大きかったのかなと思って。タイでは、ドラマをテレビで放送した後にすぐ公式がYouTubeにアップするんです。そういったタイの“良いユルさ”がいろんなところで見受けられます。SNSもそうですし、“心地良いユルさ”っていうのが一番魅力的なんだと思います。

近年では、BLACKPINKのLISAを筆頭に、タイのアーティストが世界で活躍しています。やっとタイのアーティスト達のクオリティの高さがいろんな面で気づいてもらえる時が来たかな。

──それはもともとクオリティが高くて注目されたのか、それとも急成長の背景があったりするんですか？

タイ恋　いい音楽やおしゃれなカフェの展開など、感度高いカルチャーへの取り組みは結構早いんですよね。コロナの時も一番早く国として開けたのはタイですし、臨機応変に何でもやっちゃいますというところがあるので、流行をキャッチするスピードも速いです。今までそういったタイのカルチャーは日本であまり注目されていませんでしたが、素晴らしいものはたくさんあったじゃないかなとは個人的に思います。

──なるほど。そういうフレキシブルさやスピード感もあるんですね。

タイ恋　そうですね、特に観光に関しては、観光で持っている国なので。人口多分7千万……日本の半分くらいなんですけど、それの2倍くらいの観光客を毎年受け入れているんです。なので、観光客もそれだけ受け入れていて、様々な国籍の方もいらっしゃいまして、情報が入りやすいというか、動きやすい。

──箱戸さんは次にこれ来そうだなみたいな、注目しているエンタメなどありますか？

箱戸　〈LDH〉とタイの事務所「4NOLOGUE」が提携したので、そのあたりが日本にも入ってくるんじゃないかなと思って楽しみにしています。

タイ恋　そうですね、箱戸さんもおっしゃっていましたけど、音楽も日本とタイのコラボレーションみたいなのが今出てきているので、タイの音楽が日本にもっと入ったりとか、日本の曲がタイで売れるようになったりとか。つい先日藤井風さんがタイでコンサートをされて、タイのファンもたくさん来ていました。音楽を通してのタイと日本の交流っていうのが今後増えるんじゃないかなと思っていて、観光庁としてもドラマや映画だけでもなく、音楽もフィーチャーしていきたいです。

──今回私は本当に楽しく勉強になるというか、タイBLやタイのカルチャーを身近なものに感じることができました。ぜひこの機会に、箱戸さんとタイ恋さんがお互い話したいトピックについてクロストークしてもらいたいなと…若干無茶ぶりなんですけど（笑）。

箱戸　ええ…どうですかね…（笑）。私は最近タイへ行った際はずっとバイクタクシーで移動してるんですけど、観光庁としてはやはりトゥクトゥク乗ってほしいとか、チャンプラヤで船に乗ってほしいとかありますか？

タイ恋　そうですね、タイといえばトゥクトゥクなので、もちろん乗ってほしいっていうのはあるんですけど、トゥクトゥクはメーターがない“料金交渉性”なので若干観光客が利用し辛いというのがあったんです。それが最近はEV、電気で動くトゥクトゥクが走り始めていて。それだと日本のタクシーアプリみたいにアプリで呼んで、行き先も全部アプリで設定できて、勝手に連れて行ってくれる。トゥクトゥクに乗りながらエコにも貢献できるし、今私たちのお客さんにも勧めています。

箱戸　えー、知らなかった！

タイ恋　「Muvmi」っていうアプリで呼んでもらうと、チャーターもできますし、しかも比較的安いんですね。金額も前もって分かりますし、コミュニケーションの心配もないので便利ですよ。

──タイ恋さんはどうですか？　箱戸さんにこの際聞いてみたいことなど。

タイ恋　そうですね、タイBLをプロモーションしていく中で観光庁として何ができるのかっていうのは結構悩むところなんです。箱戸さんが何回もタイを訪れるなかで、ファンの方が私たちに何を求めるのかをお聞きしたいな。

箱戸　そもそもやっぱり字を読めないっていう大きな関門があると思っていて。「一文字違うだけで全く違う場所だった！」みたいなことも多々あり（笑）。具体的にこうしてほしいというアイデアは今浮かばないのですが、言葉の壁が厚いのをサポートしてもらえると嬉しいかな……。それこそ「Muvmi」は初めて聞いたので、こういうアプリがあるよみたいな紹介などしていただけるとありがたいです。

今思い出しましたが、『I'm Tee, Me Too』のロケ地に行ったとき、友達と英語で必死に調べて、ハウススタジオ予約したことがあって。調べまくった結果、LINEで簡単に予約できることがわかったんです。調べるまではかなり大変だったけど予約自体は楽だったので、この調べる手間が省けると、スムーズだな……みたいな時はあります。

タイ恋　ありがとうございます。参考にして、今後ロケ地は連絡方法とか載せたいと思います（笑）。

箱戸　こことここ近いと思ったら距離感全然分かってなくて意外とめっちゃ遠かった！　とかありますよね。

タイ恋　それがありますよね。結構マニアックなところが多いので。

箱戸　そうなんですよね、『SOTUS/ソータス』に出てくるショッピングモールもかなり遠い場所にあってびっくりしたり（笑）。

タイ恋　そうなんですよね、私たちがBLロケ地ガイドマップ作らないとですね！　そういう情報も今後発信していきます。ありがとうございます。

箱戸　ありがとうございます、頼りにしてます（笑）。

──とても参考になるお話です……！　お二人とも、本日はありがとうございました！！

──あなたの出身地であるノルウェーのモスにあるクラブミュージックシーンについて教えてください。

モスは人口2〜3万人ほどの小さな町で、クラブシーンというものは存在しなかったんだ。街の中心部にはロックやパンクのバンドが集まる場所がいくつかあり、また所謂大人向けの小さなジャズ・シーンがあって、いくつかのバンドがそこでプレイしていた。1999年から2001年頃には、バーやクラブでDJがラジオのヒット曲や当時ノルウェーで流行っていたユーロトランスをプレイしていた。僕はその音楽には興味無かったけど、土曜日の夜に飲みに行くと嫌でも聴くハメになったんだ。

故郷であるモスの北側にあるカンボでは、ヒップホップ、それもラップだけでなく、ファンク、フュージョン、エレクトロ、ソウル、ディスコといったB-BOYミュージック、つまりオールドスクール・ヒップホップが最大の共通「ミュージックシーン」だった。ブレイクダンスのコミュニティもあって、週に何回かみんなで集まってミックステープやDJを聴いていて、中にはダンスのスタイルやムーブの練習をするやつもいた。僕はブレイクダンサーでは無かったけど、兄や友達の多くはブレイクダンサーだった。グラフィティと音楽が好きだったから彼らとつるんでいたんだ。時々、市内や近郊でジャムがあり、そこには毎回良いDJがいたんだ。中でもモスのDJ Andyは、技術的にも選曲的にも最高のDJだった。その後、彼はレコードの販売も行うようになったんだけど、彼から受けたインスピレーションには今でも感謝しているよ。

2001年から2003年にかけて友人のDJ Tompagnetsjo（きっと彼は名前を間違えていても許してくれるはず……）と一緒にパーティをはじめたんだ。不定期な開催だったけど、小さなムーブメントを起こすには十分だった。まだ本当のクラブシーンはなかったけど、いくつかのバーや古いロッククラブでプレイすることができたんだ。パンクス達は僕らの音楽を嫌っていて、邪魔をしたり、レコードを蹴飛ばそうとしたり、一部の古いロックのやつらはいつも文句を言っていた。

2001年か2002年に地元のバーSin Cityでプレイした時、地元では有名な“ロック・レジェンド”で、全国的にも知られていたMorten Henriksenが一晩中バーに座っていて、僕らがプレイを終えた後、最後にビールを飲んで「本当にかっこいい“長い曲”だった」と言ったんだ。彼は僕らのプレイを全部で長い１曲だと思っていたんだ。Isoléeの"Beau Mot Plage”やBoscoの"Everybody On The Dance Floor（Cosmo Vitelli Remix）"、Milton Bananaの"Cidade Vazia"とかをプレイしたのを今でも覚えているよ。プレイした曲に一つとして同じものは無かった。でも自分のプレイを聴いてもらうのは本当に楽しかった。グラフィティを描くのと同じように、多くの熱意を捧げ、少しイリーガルなタッチで、例えそれが僅かな人にしかウケなくても。

2002年から2005年の間、「Fan Club」というイリーガルな会場兼スタジオがモスにあったけど、そこでのストーリーはまた別の機会で話すよ。

──What was the club music scene like in your hometown of Moss, Norway?

There has never really been any club scene in Moss, it's a small town with about 20-30.000 people. In the city center there were a few places with Rock and Punk bands, there was also a tiny and very adult Jazz scene with a few bands. Around 1999-2001 some bars and night clubs had DJ's playing radio hits and Euro-Trance as that was popular music in Norway at that time. This was never my interest but if you went out drinking on Saturday it was impossible to avoid.

In Kambo, the north side of my hometown Moss, the biggest communal “music scene” was Hip-Hop, not only Rap, but more B-Boy music like Funk, Fusion, Electro, Soul, Disco, basically Old School Hip-Hop. There was a Breakdance community there so a few times a week we would all meet and listen to mixtapes or DJ's while some were practicing their dance styles or moves. I was never a Breakdancer but my brother and many of my friends were. Personally I was really into graffiti and music so we were all part of the same Hip-Hop circle nevertheless. Occasionally there was also Hip-Hop jams (gatherings) in the city or close by, and they always had good DJ's. DJ Andy from Moss was one of the best DJ's at that time, technically and also with selection of music. Later he also sold records and I still appreciate all the inspiration I got from him!

Between 2001-2003 I made parties with my friend DJ Tompagnetsjo (he knows it's his fault if I don't remembers his name properly...). The nights were sporadic but enough to create some small movements. Still there was no real club scene, but we could play in a few bars or in an old Rock club. The punks hated our music and tried to interfere or kick our records away, also some old Rock people always used a lot of time complaining. One of the best complaints was after a night at the local bar Sin City in 2001 or 2002, Morten Henriksen, a local “rock legend” with some national status sat in the bar the whole night and when we packed up he had one last beer and said “That was ONE really cool LONG song guys...” – him referring to the whole night as one song as everything sounded the same for him. I still remember playing Isolée “Bau Mot Plage”, Bosco's “Everybody On The Dance Floor (Cosmo Vitelli Remix)” and Milton Banana “Cidade Vazia” or somem other track like that – you make up your mind if it all sounds the same. But it was really fun having to work for your music to be heard, and not so different from how people make graffiti, lots of hustling and always with a bit of an illegal touch, and not to forget few people liked it.

There was also a place called Fan Club in Moss between 2002-2005, an illegal venue and music studio. But that's a different story.

──カンボでは具体的にどの様な音楽がプレイされてましたか？　またどのような影響を受けたのでしょう？

ヒップホップ・コミュニティのDJは、クラシックなブロックパーティの音楽を主にプレイしていて、James BrownやKraftwerkが多くプレイされていた。今でもカンボのローカル・パーティーを盛り上げようと思ったら、Jimmy Castor Bunchの“Just Begun”やAretha Franklinの“Rock Steady”、Cybotronの“Clear”、Booker T. & M.G. の“Melting Pot”、The Blackbyrdsの“Rock Creek Park”、Lonnie Liston-Smithの“Expansions”、Ronnie Lawsの“Always There”なんかをかければ、みんな笑顔になるよ。

だけど、それ以外にも音楽の場はあった。ラジオでは、DJ StrangefruitとDJ Abstractが土曜日の19時から24時まで、新鮮なダンスミュージックをプレイしていた。ここでは、ハウス、テクノ、ドラム＆ベースなど、よりクラブライクなスタイルの音楽を聴く事が出来たんだ。リスナーの中にはお互いに影響を与え合う地元の人々や友人もいた。12歳のとき、Kambo Super Sound（地元のダブ／レゲエサウンドシステム・クルー）の一人の導きでダブを知ったんだ。これは僕にとって大きな発見で、音楽制作を始める何年も前から、制作に対する考えを形成していく重要な要素になった。

DJとしては、若い頃から様々なジャンルの音楽をミックスできることを教えられてきた。ヒップホップでは、硬くて冷たいエレクトロと、温かくてパーカッシブなソウルやファンクがシームレスにミックスされていた。それが常にスタンダードだったんだ。僕はヒップホップとテクノのDJスタイルをミックスし、60分から8時間のセットに落とし込んできた。僕には本当に好きな音楽を使いながら、より深く、よりオブスキュアに、よりエッジの効いたプレイをするための経験とそれから培った実力があるんだ。

──What kind of music was being played there and how did it influence your current production and Djing?

I'd say the DJ's in the Hip-Hop community mostly played classic block-party music, James Brown and Kraftwerk were big. And if you want to rock a local party in Kambo (Moss) even today, it's safe to play Jimmy Castor Bunch's “Just Begun”, Aretha Franklin's “Rock Steady”, Cybotron with “Clear”, Booker T. & M.G.'s “Melting Pot”, The Blackbyrds “Rock Creek Park”, Lonnie Liston-Smith's “Expansions” or even Ronnie Laws “Always There” to put a big smile on peoples faces.

But there were other sources of music too. On radio we used to listen to DJ Strangefruit and DJ Abstract that played new fresh dance music on Saturdays from 19:00 – 00:00. Here we could discover House, Techno, Drum & Bass and other more club oriented styles. And there we're also local people and friends who influenced each other. When I was 12 years I discovered Dub with one of the guys from Kambo Super Sound (the local Dub/Reggae sound system crew). That was a big discovery and shaped my idea for production many years before I started making music.

As a DJ I was shown at a very young age that one can mix most types of music. In Hip-Hop they seamlessly mixed hard and cold Electro directly into classic warm and percussive Soul or Funk. So that has always been the standard. You can argue I mixed the styles of Hip-Hop and Techno dj-sets and stretched it from 60 minute to 8 hour sets. With me there's a lot of time and space to go even deeper, more obsure or really edgy, all with music I truly love.

──あなたにとっての名盤をいくつか教えてください。

僕の家には大好きなレコードがいっぱいあるんだけど、DJ Sotofettの名盤を定義するのはお客さん次第かもしれないね。17歳で初めてギグをしたときは、Atjazzの"Wind & Sea"、Boris Gardenerの"Melting Pot"、Nick Holderの"I Once Believed In U（Plastic Avengers Remix）"、Bjørn Torskeの"Sexy Disco（Erotic Dub）"、Upsettersの"Popcorn"などをかけるのが楽しみで仕方がなかった。あとSt. Germain'sの“Rose Rouge”が好きで、Laurent Garnierの“Man With The Red Face”とよくミックスしていた。この組み合わせは最高だね。今でもプレイしてる大好きなレコードだよ。

──What are some of your classic records?

I have my home full of records I love, and maybe it's up to the audience to define what the classic DJ Sotofett records are. But when I was 17 years old and prepared for my first gig I was really looking forward to playing Atjazz “Wind & Sea”, Boris Gardener “Melting Pot”, Nick Holder “I Once Believed In U (Plastic Avengers Remix)”, Bjørn Torske “Sexy Disco (Erotic Dub)” and Upsetters “Popcorn”. Also in the early days I loved to play St. Germain's “Rose Rouge” and used to mix it with “Man With The Red Face” by Laurent Garnier, not only two classics but also a very classic combination. I still play and love these tunes a lot.

──Bjørn TorskeやDon Papaといった伝説的なノルウェー人アーティストが、あなたのレーベル〈Sex Tags Mania〉からリリースしていますが、彼らとはどのようにして知り合ったのでしょう？

Bjørnの音楽は昔から知っていたけど、初めて会ったのは、2003年から2004年にかけて僕がベルゲンに住んでいた頃だった。ベルゲンは小さな街だから、同じ様に音楽をやっている人たちとはたいてい会うことになるんだ。ハウス、ディスコ、テクノ、ダブ、そしてその周辺のすべての音楽に対する情熱と、彼が実にユーモアのセンスを持っていることが、おそらく僕らが意気投合した理由だろう。

またこれが最も重要なポイントなんだけど、活動初期の頃、僕は多くの人に音楽を一緒にやらないか、リミックスをやらないかと声をかけた。でも、やってくれた人はほとんどいなくて、ほとんどBjørnだけが音楽を受け取って作業してくれていたんだ。彼は耳がよくて、いいトラックのアイデアさえあれば、誰にでもオープンだった。もし興味があれば、〈Sex Tags Mania〉からリリースしている『As'besto』（MANIA 05）と 『The Abu$er EP』（MANIA 06）をチェックして、Bjørnとの初期のコラボレーションを聴いてほしい。

一方、Don Papaは子供の頃から知っている。彼は僕の出身地のヒップホップ・コミュニティにいて、グラフィティや音楽に関連したクールなものをたくさん見せてくれたんだ。彼は特別なエネルギーを持っていて、いつも子供や若者と仲が良かったし、年齢に関係なく同士として接してくれた。それに彼は、自分が好きな音楽や、自分が作った音楽を熱心に見せてくれて、またどうやって作ったのかも教えてくれたんだ。僕のウォークマンやミニディスクプレーヤーをポンと叩いて録音してくれたことも何度かあった。その中にはレコードになっているものもあるよ。

また、DJとして、あるいは作品制作において、トラックをランダムにカットする手法についてもいつも話してくれた。そうすることで、リスナーは衝撃を受けてリズム感が狂い、ハマっていくというものだ。この“トリック”は僕にとって第二の天性となり、正直なところ週に数回、この作業をするたびに彼のことを思い出す。これ以上の贈り物はないだろう？　Don Papaと僕が音楽をリリースし始めたのは、彼のトラックは素晴らしいだけでなく、とても特別なものだったから。それをリリースするのは当然のことだったんだ。2008年当時、誰も彼の曲をリリースしていなかったし、気にもしていなかったから、友情とコラボレーションの完璧なサークルになったんだ。日本のリスナーが彼を伝説的な存在として認めていることを彼に必ず伝えるよ！

──How did you get to know the legendary Norwegian artists like Bjørn Torske and Don Papa, who have also released on your label Sex Tags Mania?

Bjørn's music I know since a long time, but first met him in Bergen 2003/04 when I lived there. It's a small city so you end up meeting most people that are into the same music. The passion for House, Disco, Techno, Dub and everything around it, plus the fact that he has a really good sense of humor, is probably why we hit it off. It's also important to understand that in my early days I asked many people if they wanted to work with me or remix my music, and very few did it – actually almost only Bjørn took the music and worked on it. So he has a good ear and seemed to be open minded to whoever it was as long as the idea for a good track was there. If someone is curious they should check “As'besto” (MANIA 05) and “The Abu$er EP” (MANIA 06) on Sex Tags Mania for some early collaborations with Bjørn.

Don Papa on the other hand I know since I'm a kid. He was in the Hip-Hop community where I'm from and he had loads of cool stuff to show us, mostly graffiti and music related. Don Papa has a very special energy and was always very good with kids and young people, he always treated you as a likeminded person no matter age. He would eagerly show us music he loved and also music he made, but also show us how he made it. Several times he just snapped my Walkman or MiniDisc player and recorded some stuff on it – some of those recordings are now on record. He also always talked about how to cut tracks randomly as a DJ or in his productions. He did this so the listener would get a shock and loose sense of rhythm, and then get back into it. This “trick” has become second nature to me and I think about him everythime I do it, which is probably several times a week to be honest. Can you imagine a greater gift? When my brother and I started releasing music it was only natural to put out his tracks as they are not only great, but very special. Nobody released or cared much about his music back in 2008 so it became a perfect circle of friendship and collaboration. I will definitely tell Don Papa that someone in Japan recognizes him as legendary!

──〈Sex Tags Mania〉からは、Benzo、Madteo、Dynamo Dreesen、Svnなど多くのアーティストがリリースしています。レーベルからリリースする際に、作品に求めるものは何ですか？

僕は個人的に知っている人、基本的には友達の音楽しかリリースしないんだ。その中だとBenzoだけは個人的に知らないかな。友達のLaton（Franz PomasslとAnna Ceeh）から彼の曲をもらってリミックスを作り、レーベルとLatonのスプリット盤でリリースしたんだ。

Madteoは〈Sex Tags Mania〉ではなく〈Wania〉からリリースしてる。この違いがみんなにとって重要かどうかはわからないけど。彼とは音楽における深い友情が生まれ、長い間、お互いにとても良いバランスで付き合ってきた。彼が作った最高なトラックのいくつかは〈Wania〉からリリースされているけど、それぞれ違った音楽的側面が垣間見える。〈Wania〉からリリースされた彼とSensationalの“Special Offer”を是非チェックしてみて欲しい。

僕が音楽をリリースしようと思ったときに求めるものは、時代とともに変化している。僕が音楽制作やポストプロダクションに参加しないことは非常に稀で、最終的には僕のプロジェクトでなければならないし、逆にそうでなければ誰でもリリースすることができるよ。

最初の数年間は、自分たちが好きな音楽を作って発表することがとても楽しかった。その後、非常に活発な時期（2007年〜2019年）があったけど、振り返ってみると、2005年〜2010年にヨーロッパを支配していたテック・ハウスやミニマル・テクノという堅苦しいクラブミュージックと対をなしているように思える。僕は、音楽的なオープンマインドをダンスフロアに強制的に戻した世代の一人で、何百ものリリースとリミックスを、すべてヴァイナルでリリースして、これを実現してきた。テック・ハウスは「素晴らしいのか、くだらないのか」ではなく、「正しいのか、間違っているのか」と投げかけるようなスタイルなので、当初はとても不利な状況だったんだ。

一方で僕らは、ラフで、ジャム。ベースで、すごくサイケデリックで、「技術的に良い音」というよりも「カッコいい音」を重視した音楽をよくプッシュしていた。今はまた状況が変わり、「ローファイ・ハウス」などつまらない流行りのスタイルが長い間、支配的になりすぎている。人々はクリエイティブではなく、長年にわたって現在の音楽スタイルに安住しすぎているんだ。曲はより短く、よりストレートでキャッチーに、そしてよりテクニカルにスタイリッシュでなければならないかもしれない。僕にとって音楽に他の価値観を見出すタイミングでもあるし、シーンが生まれ変わるべきタイミングでもある。シーンを変えるのは常に特別な音楽でなければならない。つまりすぐには他人に必要とされない物だ。

──Benzo, Madteo, Dynamo Dreesen, Svn, and many more have released on 〈Sex Tags Mania〉. What is it that you look for in your work when releasing on the label?

I only really release music from and with people I personally know, friends basically. On the list above the only ones I don't personally know is Benzo – I got his material from my good friends from Laton (Franz Pomassl & Anna Ceeh) and made remixes that are released on a Sex Tags Mania and Laton split release. And Madteo has released on Wania, not Sex Tags Mania, I'm unsure if the difference matter for most people. With Madteo a deep friendship in music developed and we did balance each other out very well for a long time. If you ask me several of his best releases are on Wania, they tend to show a different musical side of him. Check the “Special Offer” album on Wania with him and Sensational!

But exactly what I'm looking for when I decide to release music changes with time. It's very rare that I'm not part of making the music or doing post-production, in the end it has to be a bit my project, or else anybody can release it. The first few years of productin and releasing records it was just great to make and put out music, whatever we enjoyed. Then there was a extremely active period (2007-2019) that in retrospect can be looked at as a counterbalance to the stiff and rigid club music called Tech-House and Minimal Techno which was ruling Europe in 2005-2010. I'm part of a generation that forced musical open mindedness back to the dance floor, and we did this with hundreds of releases and remixes, all on vinyl. Tech-House is a style that makes people say “this is right or wrong”, not “this is great or funky”, that's initially why it's so bad. We on the other hand pushed a lot of music that was rough, jam-based, very psychedelic and often with more focus on a “cool” sound rather than a “technically good” sound. But now things have changed again and “lofi house” and other boring trendy styles have been too dominating for a long time. People are not creative and have for many years been too comfortable with current musical styles. It's again time for the scene to change, and for me that means finding other qualities in music, maybe tracks have to be shorter again, more straight to the point or catchy, and also more technically stylish. But it always have to be special music – something that is not necessarily picked up by others immediately.

──レーベルからリリースされた作品の中で、特に印象に残っているものは何でしょうか？

これはリスナーが決めることだけど、僕にとっては、誰も真似できないようなコラボレーションに真の強さがあると思ってる！　Madteoとの“There's Gotta Be A Way”や、Karolin TampereとMaimouna Haugenとの“Nondo”をリリースできたのはラッキーだったね。これらの曲が僕たちの音楽で人々を納得させられることを証明したんだ。

──What are some of the most impressive releases on the label?

This really has to be up to the listeners to decide, but for me there is true strength in some collaborations that nobody can copy! I feel very lucky to have made “There's Gotta Be A Way” with Madteo, and obviously “Nondo” with Karolin Tampere and Maimouna Haugen. These tracks showed that we could make people shut up and listen.

──昨年リリースされたTRESORの『SPUTTERS』はLNSとのコラボで、デトロイトやUKテクノのクラシックな影響が感じられました。今作はどのような意識で制作されたのか、お伺いしてもよろしいでしょうか？

すべてのコラボレーションは異なっていて、LNSとは様々なスタイルの音楽を一緒に作ってきた。そして、クラシックなデトロイト・テクノとエレクトロは、僕たち2人が深く共有する情熱だと言っていい。『Sputters』は、TR-808やTR-909、TR-606、MPC2000XL、E-Mu Orbit and Carnaval、Oberheim Matrix-1000、MikroKorgなどのテクノやエレクトロのフィールドに簡単に引き込める特別なスタジオセットアップで2、3年間に作られたトラック・コレクションなんだ。でも僕たちがソフトウェアやソフトシンセを使っていないと思わないでくれよ。多くの人がそう思っているみたいなんだけど、それは大きな間違いなんだ。フリーソフトシンセのHelm（By Matt Tytel）がなかったら、このアルバムに収録されている “Tidbit”や“Synchronic Bass Blort”はなかっただろうね。

個人的には、制作の中で音楽のスタイルを変えることが重要なんだ。エレクトロとアフロダブでは全く異なるアイディアを実現することができるし、それぞれの優れたアイディアには専門的な方法論が必要だと考えている。『Sputters』をよく聴いてみると、各トラックは明らかにエレクトロとテクノの流れを汲んでいるが、リズムのバリエーションが多く、同じフィールドの新しく典型的なレコードと比べるとその差は歴然だ。

トラック“Vitri-Oil”のドラムプログラミングは音を入れず、MPCのBPMもわからず、どのサウンドバンクをロードし、パーカッションサウンドがMPCのパッドのどこに配置されているのかもわからない中で作られた。これは無作為の「盲目の試み」であり、リズムはその恩恵を受けている。LNSとの相性は抜群で、彼女はメロディーとハーモニーに優れた耳を持っているし、僕はレコーディングのエッセンスを抽出するのがとても速いんだ。ただの“トラック”ではなく一つの“楽曲”として、エレクトロやテクノを作るには良いプロセスだと思っている。とにかく、『Sputters』は答えを打ち出したものではなく、より明確なスタイルの始まりなんだ。2023年4月には〈Tresor〉から4曲入りのEPをリリースする予定だが、これはそのコンセプトをさらに推し進めたものなんだ。

──Last year's TRESOR release "SPUTTERS", a collaboration with LNS, showed the influence of classic Detroit and UK techno. May I ask what was your mindset when you created this album?

Every collaboration is different and even though I have made many different styles of music together with LNS it's fair to say that more classic Detroit Techno and Electro is a passion we both deeply share. “Sputters” is a collection of tracks made during 2-3 years with a particular studio set up that easily draws you towards the Techno and Electro field, think TR-808, TR-909, TR-606, MPC2000XL, E-Mu Orbit and Carnaval, Oberheim Matrix-1000, MikroKorg etc. But don't think we are not using software or soft-synths, it's a common misperception people have of especially me, and it's very very wrong. Without the free soft-synth Helm (by Matt Tytel) we wouldn't have the tracks “Tidbit” or “Synchronic Bass Blort” on the record. Personally it's important for me to change style of music in my productions, I can execute very different ideas with Electro than with Afro-Dub, and each good idea deserves its dedicated home. If you have a closer listen to “Sputters” each track is obviously kept in the vain of Electro and Techno, but there is a lot of variation in rhythm compared to most new typical records in the same field. The drum programming on track “Vitri-Oil” was made with no sound on and also no knowledge of what BPM the MPC had, I didn't even know what sound bank was loaded or where the different percussion sounds where aligned on the MPC pads. It was a random “blind attempt” and the rhythms really benefitted from it. For me it's also great to work with LNS as she has a good ear for melodies and harmonies while I'm very quick at extracting the essence in recordings. It's a good process for making Electro and Techno, as the music doesn't only become “tracks” but more “songs”. Anyway, “Sputters” is not a conclusion, it's the beginning of a more defined style, and in April 2023 we'll release a four track EP on Tresor that takes the concept a bit further.

──〈WANIA〉、〈Sex Tags Mania〉、〈SEX TAGS AMFIBIA〉、それぞれの今後の予定を教えてください。

来年は『Jimi Tenor & Kabukabu meets DJ Sotofett “No Warranty Dubs”』という、JimiとKabuKabuバンドのプロデュースとミックスを担当した15曲入りアフロ・ダブ・ジャズ・アルバムをリリースする予定だよ。バンドの録音をほぼ自由に扱えたから、プロデューサーとして画期的な作品になった。このレコードのテストプレスは2年以上かけて行い、最終的に〈Sex Tags Amfibia〉からリリースされる。とても楽しみにしているよ。同じく〈Sex Tags Amfibia〉から、Kambo Super Soundとの12インチも2023年にリリースされる予定だ。

──What are your future plans for WANIA, SEX TAGS MANIA, and SEX TAGS AMFIBIA, respectively?

Next year I will release Jimi Tenor & Kabukabu meets DJ Sotofett “No Warranty Dubs”, a 15 track Afro/Dub/Jazz album were I produced and mixed Jimi and his KabuKabu band. It's a landmark for me as a producer as there was freedom to do almost anything I wanted with the band recordings. The testpress for this record I had for more than 2 years and I really look forward to this finally being released on Sex Tags Amfibia. On the same label there will also be a 12” with Kambo Super Sound out in 2023, it's also one of these white labels that have been circulating for years.

──今、DJをする上で心がけていることは何ですか？

人に音楽を聴かせるというのはとても光栄なことで、そのことを大切にしながら、万人がすぐに満足できるようなものばかりではない、本当に良いものを提示することを心がけている。ヒット曲や旬の人気曲をプレイすることもできけど、クラブミュージックにはそのような一般的なアプローチよりももっと幅広い側面があると思うんだ。

DJは、常に人をある方向に誘導しながら、特別な音の空間や雰囲気を作り出す必要があると思う。部屋の中の音をコントロールできることは、僕にとってとてもポジティブな刺激になるし、圧倒的な周波数で音を聴かせるのはとても楽しいことだ。僕は良し悪しついて非常に強い意見を持っているけど、それは純粋なルールではなく音楽やパフォーマンスを通して輝くフィーリングから来るものなんだ。ダンスフロアを前にすると、次の正しい一手はなにか、どのレコードをかけるべきか、簡単に感じられるが、それは心と体の反応だ。

この「感覚」を大切にすれば、自分が気に入らないトラックをプレイすることはないだろう。多くのDJは選曲にこだわりがなく、流行の音楽や、機能的だからとプロモで手に入れたものをたくさんかけている。これは時間の無駄だし、音楽に対する情熱が感じられないやり方だと思っている。22年間で、嫌いな曲を2、3曲かけたことがあるけど、正直言ってその曲はそんなに悪い曲ではなく、ただあまり好きではないだけなんだ。

だから僕はいつも本物のDJで、他の多くのDJはエンターテイナー、模倣者、偽者、あるいは単にキャリア・ハンターなのかもしれないね。また、良いミックスと展開を作ることは僕にとって重要で、常にスタイルとサウンドを変えながらフロアを熱狂させることができるよ。僕のDJプレイを聴いた人は、レギュラーDJにはとてもできないことをやってのけたと思うだろう。一方、僕は熱心すぎるあまりに、これまでに何度も悲劇的なミックスをしたことがある。ハイヒールを履いたホビットが、スプーンでゆで卵を運びながら、赤い線の上を歩いているような音だったね。

──What do you keep in mind when DJing at the moment?

It's a privilege to play music for people and I cherish that by trying to present something actually good, which doesn't always mean instantly satisfying for everyone. We can all play hit after hit or the most well liked music at the time, but I think there's a much broader aspect to club music than that popular approach. A DJ should generate a special sonic space and atmosphere while always trying to nudge people in a certain direction. Being able to control the sound in a room is something that is very positively triggering for me, and sonically exposing people to overwhelming frequencies is extremely enjoyable as well. I have very strong opinions about what is good and bad, but this comes from a feeling that shines through the music or a performance, not purist rules. When being in front of a dance-floor it's easy for me to feel what the next right move or record should be, and that's as much a reaction from the body and soul as the mind.

Keeping this idea of “the feeling” in mind there is no chance that I'll play a track I don't like. Many DJ's are not so engaged in their selection or play lots of currently trendy music, or things they got as promos because it's functional. For me this is a waste of time and an approach that lacks genuine passion for music. I have maybe played 2-3 tracks I don't like in 22 years, and to be honest those tracks weren't that bad I just don't really like them so much. That's maybe why I'm always a real DJ and many others are entertainers, copycats, posers or simply career hunters.

Also making good mixes and transitions is important to me, while always changing style and sonics and keeping the floor intense. People that heard me on a good day would probably agree that I've done things very few regular DJ's can manage. Then again I have many times been too eager and splashed out one catastrophic mix after another, surely sounding like a hobbit in high heels trying to walk on a thin red line while carrying an unboiled egg with a spoon.

──日本ではどのようなDJプレイをする予定ですか？

今回のツアーでは、自分の未発表作品とリミックスだけをプレイする予定だ。ライブごとに違うものなると思うけど、エレクトロ、ハウス、テクノ、そして長いセットではジャズ、ダブ、アフロ、ディスコもプレイするかもしれない。過去4年間で約1000曲の新曲とリミックスを制作してきたが、これは僕の日本復帰を望む人たちへの素敵なプレゼントになると思っている。

東京のCube、札幌のPrecious Hall、大阪のDaphniaでのライブに加え、東京では違うコンセプトのシークレットライブもあるので、楽しみにしていてくれ！

──What kind of DJing do you plan to do in Japan?

On this tour I will only play my own unreleased productions and remixes. It'll be different on each gig but people can expect Electro, House, Techno, and also Jazz, Dub, Afro and Disco on the longer sets. The past four years I produced about 1000 new tracks and remixes and felt this is a nice gift to the people who want me back to Japan. In addition to the gigs at Cube in Tokyo, Precious Hall, Sapporo and Daphnia in Osaka there will be a secret gig in Tokyo with a different concept so be on the look out for flyers and info about that!

──First of all, could you tell us how this project was started?

Nakajima: I recall we, Kanji-san and I, were having dinner together at the beginning of last year, and we joined forces… how did that happen again?

Yamamoto: I’ve been having tea and dinner with Ikkyu-san on a regular basis, and of course we have met on work as well. Every time we met, we would say something to the effect of, "It would be nice if we could do something together," or something like that, but it seemed like we never actually said it [Laughs]. But we had done one song before, right? The one about wandering around Shinjuku late at night.

Nakajima: Oh, that was for my solo work [Laughs]. Rather soon after we said, "Let's do it," and you sent me a demo that later became Blue Boat. As I recall, I sent it back with a vocal track on it right away.

Yamamoto: Yes, that's right. I also quickly made the first demo that would later become YES. When I heard the melody and vocals that Ikkyu-san sent me, I thought, "This is it, this is the one!!"

Nakajima: Soon after that, tricot left its previous management and I became occupied with all the things we now had to do ourselves. tricot became like self-management for about a year and a half, and I had a lot of responsibilities besides music, so I left it alone. But things finally seemed to settle down, so I asked Kanji-san, "Are we still on for that thing?"

Yamamoto: Actually, I had already received the terms of the contract from the label when we first got together. Then, some time later in the year, I received a LINE message from Ikkyu-san. That was around March, I think. From there, the project was completed in almost no time at all [Laughs].

──How did you two meet in the first place?

Nakajima: I don't remember how many years ago, but when Kanji-san was doing support guitar for BOOM BOOM SATELLITES, tricot was invited to perform for a two-man show and played in Osaka and Nagoya. Also, Yoko-san (Yoko Fukuda), who was playing drums for BOOM BOOM SATELLITES at that time, had also played drums for tricot as well.

Yamamoto: I didn't know that.

Nakajima: So tricot and BOOM BOOM SATELLITES had been in contact through that, but Kanji-san and I became good friends at the afterparty, right? I was still living in Kansai at the time, but after I moved to Tokyo, we started hanging out more. That is how we began interacting with each other. You even accompanied me when I went to buy a guitar, isn’t that right?

Yamamoto: Yeah, that time with Yoshida-kun(Yusuke Yoshida, drummer of tricot) too. Ikkyu-san is of course a wonderful singer and songwriter, but while I wanted her to continue doing what she’s doing, I had an idea in my mind like, “I want her to try this or that,” and I wanted to work on it together.

Nakajima: When I first decided to do a solo project, I offered to have Kanji-san play the guitar. That was the first time we played music together for “work”. After that, I got extremely busy and didn't have time to do my own solo work, but I had always wanted to continue because I thought that if I could express a part of myself that was neither Jenny High nor tricot through this project, and if it was with Kanji-san, I would be extremely happy. He said he would even make the track for me, and all I had to do was put my part on top. Easy! [Laughs] Because he is a person I can trust 100% musically, I feel like I can just leave it to him.

──I imagine you must have been very motivated to start a new project while both of you are extremely busy.

Yamamoto: At first, we were joking and saying things like, "We're aiming to become the Enon Kawatani of Japan’s ‘Reiwa Era’." I wanted people to think, "These guys are doing so much at once."

Nakajima: Hahaha.

──How did you go about the songwriting process?

Yamamoto: At first I asked Ikkyu-san, "Do you have anything particular you want to do in mind?", and she sent me about 20 K-POP songs. Not only that, she sent me the links for each song one by one, not all together in a playlist, so it took me some time to check them all [Laughs]. I also like K-POP music, but I thought it would be difficult to use it as a reference ...... K-POP is difficult, right? [Laughs]

──You two are both into K-POP.

Nakajima: I started out with BLACKPINK, and now I'm really into Kepler.

Yamamoto: Really heavy stuff, yeah? I'm more into TWICE, Soul/R&B, and Kayokyoku stuff. So I said, “Let’s forget about K-POP for a while.” [Laughs]

──Blue boat has a bit of a vaporwave or city pop feel to it, doesn't it?

Yamamoto: Ikkyu-san sent me some non-K-Pop songs as references as well and I found the one I liked. I used it as a reference and made it into Blue boat with my own chord progression I often use. The so-called "Dream Pop" feel wasn't something I was trying to achieve, but it gradually became a part of my work.

──By the way, what kind of songs other than K-POP did you send to Kanji-san?

Nakajima: Tune-Yards, which I have always liked. I tend to like a relatively tight and minimal sound. Of course, I think there was a Dream-Pop kind of song in there too. Not a link to streamings or anything, but there was a video from Instagram of a sexy woman singing [Laughs], and that was kinda Dream Pop, wasn't it?

Yamamoto: That's right [Laughs].

Nakajima: That person is a friend I met when I went on tour in the U.S. with tricot, but I had no idea she was doing music when I first met her. Later, I followed her on Instagram, and one day I saw a video of her playing synths, bass, guitar, and other instruments by herself. I really liked that. She doesn’t put it on streamings or YouTube, and now that I think about it, she might only be seriously active on Instagram.

Yamamoto: We DM'd that person and asked, "Who's mixing this?" with Ikkyu-san’s ~perfect English~ [Laughs]. I thought it would be more interesting to ask someone who is not a so-called "professional" to do it because sometimes that kind of touch can give a stronger taste to the finished product. It was very hard because of depreciation of the yen, though. The yen kept dropping until the moment we paid. I would wake up in the morning, look at the exchange rate, and think, "Oh, the dollar is going up again……." I never thought that I would be the one to suffer these kind of consequences.

──Did you make most of the songs together?

Yamamoto: We asked Emi Nishino to play the keyboard for two songs. But overall, I thought it would be better to make the songs sound more like programming than human playing. So from the initial demo stage to the final version, very little has changed. Except for Ikkyu-san's vocals and my guitar, which we re-recorded in the studio, the equipment and tones stay the same as in the first demo.

Nakajima: The only major change was in gakkari. This song had been neglected for a long time, but I liked it so much that I told Kanji-san about it, and he rearranged it for me.

Yamamoto: gakkari only had one chorus. To complete it, I had to make it longer, which was honestly a pain in the ass [Laughs]. So, once the chorus comes, the rest of the song repeats itself, and before you know it, it's over. Incidentally, I recently bought a new soft synth, and the synth sounds were created while I was having fun playing around with it.

──Were The Melody and lyrics written by Ikkyu-san?

Nakajima: Yes. But mostly Kanji-san created the whole tracks and I just put the melody on top of it. It was like, Kanji-san sent me the short demo first, I put the melody over it, then he completed the whole song structure, and I sang over it. The song was usually finished in about two turns.

──Night Market has a very elaborate chord progression.

Yamamoto: I used augmented chords for the first time in my life [Laughs]. That's the only song I've written recently. I've been working on this album for about a year now, so I'm totally a different person than I was when we first began working together.

Nakajima: I feel completely different now than I did a year ago.

Yamamoto: When we first started making the song, it was a simple oldies-like chord progression of regular triads with minor sixth added, but gradually I wanted to add tensions. Also, I had not used the synth bass much in the past, so I wanted to use it this time.

──How did you go about writing the lyrics?

Nakajima: I tried not to take things too seriously for most of this project. I pretty much wrote gakkari with picking my nose the whole time, don’t worry it’s just a joke [Laughs]. But honestly, I don't think about anything at all. I just like the way the sound fits the words and the melody. I especially like the chorus.

Yamamoto: The chorus melody and lyrics are great.

Nakajima: I want it to be used on TikTok or something.

──[Laughs]How did you come up with the name of the project, “SUSU"?

Nakajima: We thought about it a LOT. I made a list of about 20 ideas with annotations like, "This has this meaning…” I showed it to Kanji-san and the staffs, and they both instantly said, "This is it!" My brand is called “SUSU." My solo project was also under the name “SUSU by Ikkyu Nakajima.” I think that if I collaborate with brands in this way, this SUSU will become even more interesting.

Yamamoto: What is interesting is that the name “SUSU," the band's sound, and the atmosphere of "SUSU" are in perfect synch with each other.

Nakajima: A music video will be released soon, and I hope you will take a look at it because it is very interesting and has a great atmosphere, with many people wearing SUSU clothes. This is the team that uses music more freely than any other team I have been involved with. I am very happy to be able to be so deeply involved in the visual part of the project. I have already left most of the musical aspects to Kanji-san, so I would like to "piggy-back" on each other, making up for any shortcomings.

──How do you plan to develop SUSU in the future?

Nakajima: I want to have a lot of people listen to our music and earn money so I can move house[Laughs]. Also, if it sells absurdly well, I would like to be covered in brand-name products. It's a project that is riddled with desire.

Yamamoto: Even if it sells well, it’ll probably only be enough for one more side dish [Laughs].

Nakajima: But I don't think there will be more side dishes unless the listeners also benefit from the enjoyment, so I want to devise ways to make the activities and the music itself more interesting so that they can enjoy a lot. Since I started this project in my 30s, I would like to invite members who are fun to be with, even if we expand overseas. Of course tricot is fun too! [Laughs]

Yamamoto: If we were to do a live concert overseas, I would like to stay there for five days and do one concert in the middle [Laughs]. I want to do it in a warm place. Hawaii, Guam, or New Caledonia would be nice.

Nakajima: In many ways, I want to have some room to spare. tricot does spirited activities and that's what attracts people, but I think this project should be in a different position from that.